Episode Transcript
Stephenie Langston:
Hi everyone, thank you for joining me today. I’ve been looking forward to this call for quite some time. When we had the idea to start this series, I knew I wanted to have all of these women on the call with me to share their experiences in safety. On the call today, we have some incredible women who have been an inspiration to me throughout my career. So, thank you everyone for joining me today. I was hoping you could all do a short introduction and tell everybody about your current role in safety and just do a brief introduction for everyone. Jan, do you want to get started?
Jan Eggum:
My name is Jan Eggum. I am a graduate of the University of Kentucky. (Go cats! —Even though we didn’t do so well on the SEC tournament). I used to work at the University of Kentucky in laboratory safety for 17 years, so that’s where I met all these wonderful ladies, and now I work for a consulting company called CSS. So, we go around army installations and look at their industrial hygiene hazards and document all the deficiencies they have. So, that’s what I’m currently doing.
Stephenie Langston:
Great. Elizabeth, do you want to go next?
Elisabeth Haase:
Sure. I’m Elizabeth Haase. I’m a graduate of Boston College (my undergrad), and Suffolk University for an MBA. I’m currently living in Minnesota, and I am working as a director of environmental, health, and safety at two separate colleges (undergraduate institutions), and I guess that’s it.
Stephenie Langston:
And then Amy H.
Amy Haberman:
Amy Haberman. I’m not working in safety right now, but I did work in environmental, health, and safety for 15 years. I have a bachelor’s degree in Environmental, Health, and Safety. My most recent EH&S role is that I was the Director of Safety for the College of Engineering at the University of Florida. About two years ago, I took a new role in the Chief Financial Officers’ Division doing continuous improvement for core administrative functions for the University of Florida.
Stephenie Langston:
All right, Amy O.
Amy Orders:
I’m Amy Orders. I’m at NC State University currently wearing about 16 hats. I’m the Director of Emergency Management and Mission Continuity. I am the Campus Operation Director for COVID Operations. I am the Assistant Director for Health and Safety, and in my spare time I’m an adjunct faculty Member for the College of Education, teaching people how to make safety more entertaining.
Stephenie Langston:
And then, Jerilyn.
Jerilyn Roberts:
I’m Jerilyn Roberts and I’m at the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology. I have a master’s degree and undergraduate in Chemical Engineering—chemical engineering for the undergraduate and engineering management for the master’s degree from there. I am the ABP for facilities risk and services, and I started out in MR health and safety when I started the position and have moved into more roles with facilities, public safety, and emergency management, all included.
Stephenie Langston:
And, Gabby, could you introduce yourself?
Gabrielle Repik:
Hi, I’m Gabby Repik and I have an undergraduate degree from University of Florida, and then a master’s degree as well, studying on health and infectious diseases. And I’m currently working on a second master’s degree in medical microbiology. And then, when I was at University of Florida, I worked in the lab animal field where I managed a BSL-3 facility and an ABSL-3 facility that worked with select agents. And then, about four years ago, I took a job with environmental, health, and safety here at Weill Cornell Medicine in New York City, where I manage a BSL-3 facility that studies tuberculosis and I also do a lot of their biosafety (part of the biosafety team).
Stephenie Langston:
Thank you, everyone. So today I wanted to have this conversation with you because as we started this series, I know that for me as an EH&S professional I looked for women who were already in the field as mentors and things like that moving forward. And so, my hope is that this conversation will be a resource for women in the field as they continue to move forward in their careers. So, with that, I wanted to learn more about what was your first experience with EH&S? I know, for me, it was while I was working in a research lab. But, I just would like to hear how you all first interacted and learned about the EH&S profession in general.
Amy Orders:
I’ll go first. My first interaction was a two-fold experience. Mine was a blood-borne pathogens exposure. I worked in a hospital setting and was a phlebotomy as part-time I was finishing my graduate work and had basically a vacuum tube explode, or lose its seal, in my hand. And it happened to be (unfortunately) a prisoner with a substantial medical history. So, I was introduced to the world of HIV testing and “blood-borne pathogen exposure” world within a matter of a couple of days. I instantly decided that health and safety in a hospital setting was not my calling any longer. That I really could do more behind the scenes at a desk and help engage other people to have a better experience then what I had. And then I moved into a health and safety environment that was very fast paced in Houston, working for a person whose personality was 16 feet tall, and I figured out that health and safety could be more than just compliance. Health and safety could be a personality and storytelling and that you could impact people if you are authentic in your message. It wasn’t just about compliance and buy-in to the situation, it was being human and making safety personal to them. And so, I fell head-over-heels for the opportunity to go meet people, to tell them how cool this could be, and that it didn’t have to be a horrible experience or something that would leave a scar, like my mine was to begin with.
Stephenie Langston: Anyone else want to share?
Elisabeth Haase:
I can go. My first job out of college was in a laboratory which had a contract to study the sediment, the ocean floor. And every now and then they would send out what they would call a “cruise” of people, and this was not on a cruise ship, this was on a working vessel. And they needed a safety officer, and I didn’t even know what that was. And it was explained to me that when we grabbed the samples of sediment from the ocean floor, and they came on deck, we would have to add formaldehyde to the sample (to the jar). And that what you had to do was make sure that you washed the waste formaldehyde off of the deck of the ship, into the ocean. This was in the 80s, right? This is how we handled it. And I just said, “I don’t think this is right!” And so, that was my first foray into safety. And I came back and started, “Who’s OSHA? Who are these people? What is this?” And that was the beginning. It was the hairs on the back of my neck that stood up, saying, “something’s wrong here.”
Stephenie Langston:
Yeah. I can relate. I’ve felt that same experience before. It’s that moment where you’re just like, “Oh, this doesn’t quite feel right, I know there’s a better way.”
Jerilyn Roberts:
I had a little bit different experience. I was working in industry right out of school, for Michelin Tire Company. And I got to several plants and did this process engineering, but then I ended up at a process engineering plant in Kansas City, Missouri (in that area). And they had to implement ISO 14001, and I was a process engineer, and they said, “Well, somebody has to do it.” So, they gave it to me to do. And so, it was that first. Looking at programs and figuring out how to be organized and the things that are required for somebody that goes into a field like this. Looking at what we’re doing right, what we’re doing wrong. But that really had an interest for me, and really helped me get the next job that I had, that was true environmental, health, and safety at South Dakota Mines.
Amy Haberman:
My experience is similar to Elisabeth and Amy’s in that there was an incident that really triggered my turn into safety. So, I was working at a meat manufacturing plant while I was in college. I did it in the summers, working in their maintenance department, and I basically would document maintenance procedures with the mechanics. I’d follow them around and take pictures and then I would turn that into an SOP to train new mechanics. And there was a procedure that they wanted me to document, but I was going to be out of town. So, I declined and I said I couldn’t be there. But, they still went ahead with that maintenance and what happened was when those two mechanics opened up that piece of equipment they released 50 gallons of ammonia (and it was under pressure) and one of them died instantly and the other was completely saturated and the EMTs wouldn’t even perform CPR on him because it was a hazard to the EMTs. I got a call from my mom because my dad also worked where I was at. So, to get a call from your mom and hear her say, “There was an accident where your dad works and there were folks that were injured and killed” was completely life changing for me. Honestly, I did not have safety on my radar at all. Having worked there, our training was like, “Hold up your hand. Ok, count your fingers. You have five fingers. We want you to go home at the end of this summer with the same number of fingers (10 fingers) you started with.” That was our safety training. And then I just, like a puppy dog, followed these mechanics around and trusted their judgment about what was safe and what wasn’t. And I surely saw some things that were really, really not safe. But I wasn’t sure about what I wanted to do in my career, overall. I was interested in industrial engineering and a few other things. And after that accident, I had laser beam focus. I was like, “Safety as a system.” This impacts people’s lives. So, I found a program that specifically specialized in that, and I transferred schools and basically from there on out, I was like, “Okay, I’m in EH&S now.” And I’ve had great experience in all different types of industries. I’ve worked in heavy blue collar-type industries, but now I’m in academia, and I’ve also worked at some biotech companies, and it’s all different hazards and different types of people. But, like Amy mentioned, if you make it personal and you are authentic and find ways to connect, it can be really rewarding.
Gabrielle Repik:
That was really… I had no idea, Amy. That was an amazing story. I came from sort of a unique background as well. I started in the lab animal field as an animal care technician after I graduated into the recession, and I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. I’d worked as a vet tech previously, so it was just a job that had benefits and paid well. And I was lucky enough to be placed into the infectious disease area, working with animals that have been infected with various risk group 2 pathogens. But the training was a little lacking, and I was a bit of a troublemaker, and asked a lot of questions, and kept pushing back, and trying to find better ways to do things and improve things. And that led to various promotions and interactions with EHS. And by the time I left that university, I was managing their select agent BSL-3, and working very closely with the biosafety group, and finally understanding what it was that safety entailed. And, like Amy O. had mentioned, one of the things that I really embraced was the communication aspects of safety, in that it doesn’t need to be dry. And that you need to really tailor your message, so that it’s effective and it really does get out and make an impact, because everybody gets really sick of safety training. But, if you can make it fun and personable it can be much more effective, and you can create some great relationships that way.
Stephenie Langston:
Jan, do you want to share?
Jan Eggum:
Sure. Mine’s a little bit different in that in school (mine goes all the way back to school) I was undecided when I went in, but I knew I wanted to do something with science because I’ve always enjoyed sciences and that was always one of my stronger suits. And so, I was sitting in a zoology class, dissecting a frog, and the guy across for me had a T-shirt that said, “Environmental Health Science” on it. I go, “What’s that? What’s that field do?” And so, he was telling me about it, and I was like, “Huh. I think I need to go check it out.” So, I talked to one of the professors there (who had a lot of very similar comic humor that I did) and so, we hit it off. He explained what environmental health science was, what it would entail, what type of paths I could take, what careers I could take, and I was just like, “Oh, this is it!” And then I took my first EHS class, and it’s like the storybook says: the clouds parted, the angels sung, and I was like “Ah!” So, that was my first foray into the whole environmental health science, and then graduated with that, got a master’s in public health, knew I wanted to do more of the industrial side. I did a short internship at a health department and I’m thinking, “Nah, that’s not me, I need to do the industrial side.” And so, then I got a job right out of my master’s program with the University of Kentucky doing land safety, and that’s pretty much been it.
Stephenie Langston:
So, I think one of the things that I like hearing about all your stories is that it’s really diverse. It’s people coming from different points in their life and different fields of interest, and then moving into safety because it was a passion. It was something that you were excited about. Like Jan said, the skies parted. Everything was exciting and you were interested in moving into this field for those reasons. And one of the things that I took away from everything that you said as well is that communication really has been a key part in how you’re changing the way that people look at safety and the way that people interact with safety professionals. And I know, in my personal experience, I found that when you can really get down to that granular level and connect with people and you see that light bulb go off in their minds—it’s one of the most rewarding experiences that I think you can have as a safety professional, in that it no longer becomes a checklist of what somebody has to go through on a daily basis, but more of a part of their daily lives, and a part of how they perform their job and the pride that they take in their work. And that’s one of the things I’ve enjoyed, seeing the shift from when I first started in safety. And now there’s really more of that push for exciting content, but also more transparency and communication in those respects as well. Do you think you’ve seen that, as well? —A change and shift in safety.
Amy Orders:
I think the shift in safety is because there have been concerted effort like this. The people who are engaged in these conversations are sharing their stories, are making the effort to bring either new ideas and epiphanies to the forefront, or not accepting the way it had to be. One of the things in safety is the rigors and the policy and the expectations are pretty black-and-white. There’s a boundary and a limitation. However, there’s no boundary on the interpretation factor to be grayscale. What can you do to get to “Yes”? What can you do to be creative? To not say “No” or limit somebody’s passion. And I think safety becomes a passion because our job becomes a facilitation. Our job becomes “be the engager.” I say we’re a hub. We don’t own what you do, we own the elements that make what you do easier, or safer, or compliant. But, if we use our words and safety language, (which is an alphabet soup, there’s so many acronyms and so many different variables of how people say the conversation) I think the more and more that safety is talked about, the more and more it’s accepted. The dynamic is changing, and it perpetuates change.
Amy Haberman:
Stephenie, you got you got all of us together, I think, because we’re women in a field that is primarily male dominated. And I think that the reason that I’ve connected so well with the other women in this field is because we approach it in the same way. So, you mentioned transparency and communication, and I think (not to stereotype) that women have a different communication style, and we approach our work differently. And I think that brings a different perspective to EH&S then what (traditionally) the industry has seen. I know all these ladies are super creative and animated and dynamic and love to engage with folks and I think some of my male counterparts got into EH&S because it was black-and-white. You have a regulation; you can enforce it. But we get at the “How?” And “How are we going to be the most effective?” And that’s where I think that our personalities can come into play and it’s open to interpretation. Like you said, there’s a little bit of gray area within the boundaries or the structural framework of our field. But, I think that we’re just bringing a different perspective on how to best engage people and motivate them, and also I think we view our role a little bit differently. I mean, I certainly consider myself a partner and an advocate, and I try to engage people on their level. They bring a ton to the table; they’re experts at what they’re doing. It’s just, if we partner together, we’ll be so much better. I’m not coming into just to tell people, “Oh, you can’t do that. This isn’t safe.” It’s just not an approach I appreciate. I wouldn’t want someone to do that to me. I think that’s transparency and communication about “Why are we doing this? What’s the end goal? How can we get there together?”
Jerilyn Roberts:
I really like what both of you said on being able to get to the “yes.” One of the things that I enjoy the most in facilities (which facilities is also pretty male-dominated) is working with, “Well, how can we get it done?” And thinking outside the box, and going down a different road, or reprioritizing, and talking with people, and figuring it out. And I’ve just found that if you’re always working towards moving forward and doing something different, and continuously improving, you’re going to just make huge strides. And everybody wants to come along with you; they don’t want to stay back. Even those that don’t necessarily like the change. When they see that there’s positive things coming, (and bringing some of that personality into it) I think it makes a big difference.
Gabrielle Repik:
I do think that there is some something to be said about the institutional culture. Because, I definitely have worked in places where safety was just very looked down upon. They were the police. So, if they saw you coming, it was just [not great] right off the bat. Whereas right now, I’m extremely lucky. I mean, the PIs that I work with at the BSL-3 here are just amazing and it’s a collaboration constantly. We have a very, very good working relationship and that’s not just the institution. I mean, overall, the institution has a great culture of safety. I’m not going to say that we don’t have the random PI that wouldn’t love to mouth pipettes, or whatever disgusting, horrible, unsafe thing they want to do (not in the BSL-3, don’t get me wrong). But, I think there’s something to be said about the institutional culture that really establishes what the ground rules are, as compared to just letting people run amok, because they bring in tons of tons of money, or their name’s on a building, or whatever.
Jan Eggum:
I’d like to say that for me it’s a couple of things that we’ve touched on already. For me, I know, when I first started it, I really did like the black-and-white. It was okay to say, “Because I know this is wrong, this is right.” But, as you grow in your career, I tend to think that it just becomes all gray. Like, there’s not a totally right and wrong, especially with the way that dynamic research is. It all changes constantly. So, for me it was always, “I’ve got to approach this as a partnership with whomever I’m trying to help to get to that yes.” It wasn’t, like you all have said, just me saying “yes” or “no.” I always kind of came across it as, “How can we do this safely?” or “How can we do this so that you go home in the way that you came to work, or if not the same, than even better?” So, that’s the way that I always thought about it in my head, “I have to work with you to get you home in a safer way than you came to work.” So, that’s how I looked at it.
Elisabeth Haase:
So, bringing up the rear, it was interesting in my intro I said that I worked at two different institutions. And this is a little bit of the getting to “yes.” So, I started working at Carleton College in Minnesota, and I was here full time, and there’s another school in town (St. Olaf College) who, at the time, was using multiple consultants to run their safety program. And it was very much the, “No, you can’t do that.” And they would hear that over at Carleton [College] we took the facilities…(My theory is if the U.S. Navy can go offline for three days out of the year to do safety training or to do training exercises, then we can take our facilities people offline twice a year to do safety training). So, we would get our facilities guys offline. We put them through a conference style program so they’re not just sitting there for eight hours learning about HazCom and blood borne pathogens, because these are people that are mobile all the time, they’re movers. So, what ended up happening was the St. Olaf College President went to the Carleton College President and said, “How about we combine our resources, and we have one central EHS office for two campuses, and we give EHS the staff to do that—to go back and forth?” And I think that’s just the grayscale, it’s “How do we get to yes?” My facilities guys over at St. Olaf are saying, “I want to do training the way that Carleton is doing training. I want safety training the way that Carleton is doing safety training.” I mean, that’s the whole learning about and becoming a partner with all of your community.
Stephenie Langston:
Elisabeth, I never heard that part of your story before and how you had come to work for both universities. I know if I had the choice to sit in eight hours of training or to go do more hands-on training with you, I’d 100% choose training with you all day, every day. And, going back to what was touched upon too, I think we, as women, do approach conversations differently. We do approach our interactions with our peers differently (not necessarily in a bad way). But sometimes we do approach it differently. And I think what I’m continuing to see as I read more stories about women in safety, and women who have made a significant impact on safety, is that they brought that new idea that (in a male-dominated field) hadn’t been seen before. And I know if we go back and look at some of the statistics right now, as you look at some of the professional organizations (even with students coming up in the safety field), only 30% of them are women. Yet, close to 50% of the workforce is female. And so, you have these male-dominated positions in executive leadership (and things like that) making decisions across the board for women who are working out in the field, whether that be in safety, construction, or industry. I think you’re seeing a lot more influx of women into those fields. One of the things that I think has come across in numerous reports is [the need for] having that diversity in your EH&S office (whatever the case may be) whether it’s academia, or business, or even in your C-suite level. Do you create the diversity and ideas in how you’re approaching your safety training? What are the issues that are affecting the women in your workplace? They’re going to be very different than the issues that are affecting the men in the workplace. Some of the things that are talked about in terms of “women in safety,” are workplace violence, proper fitting PPE, and mentoring women into those executive leadership roles (I think a majority of the population of women who are working in safety are in the specialist and manager level roles). So, my question to all of you is how you’ve succeeded in your career and grown in your careers. And what are some of the things that have been harder for you to jump through (hoops-wise), what are the things that have impacted you as a woman in the male-dominated field of safety?
Jan Eggum:
So, I can say for me, just the basic going and doing lab inspections for an old crusty PI (we’ve all met the guy who is old and crusty and says “We’ve done it this way in my lab for 400 years; we’re going to still do it for 400 years”), trying to talk to him and say, “Well, why can’t we change this process?” or whatever you’re trying to fix. And then I would see my male counterpart ask the same question and the guy would light up, and it would be like, “Oh well, we can do it this way!” [Though] I’ve been talking to this guy for two years, trying to get him to change, and my male counterpart does it. But, conversely, I’ve seen it the other way as well. So, I think it has to do with (as we talk about communication) who we are communicating with. It’s like go back to “know your audience.” If it’s the guy that is old and crusty then maybe you will have to engage your male counterpart to help you out with it, because they see it. To me, I think that some people would say, “Well, that gets you down.” But I’m like, “I don’t think so.” You’re still getting to the “yes,” your end result is still the same, regardless of how you got there. You’re still getting the end result of making old Professor Crusty safer in his lab and his people safer, and that’s what it all comes down to me. So, I mean, you’ve got to know your audience and are they going to be receptive to this dynamic women who does more, “Wooo!” or the male counterpart, more traditional role. That way.
Elisabeth Haase:
I have found with knowing your audience—I’m not happy with heights, okay? I know that about myself, but I know that I can do it if I have to. And I needed to get the facilities guys over at Carleton to buy into the fall protection program and what we were doing. So, I had to go out onto a couple of routes. Which meant getting on the ladder, crawling through the hatch, getting out to the roof. I did not want to go anywhere, I mean, you could tell. The people that were with me could so totally tell on my face that there was fear, but I won them over. I mean, that was the whole deal of “I’m willing to go out on that roof with you and I’m willing to show you what the plan is for the roof, for the tieoffs, and from now on, we’re talking about this in a conference room.” I think it’s [about being] willing to sometimes go out of your own comfort zone and show people. Go to them. This isn’t the “you can’t do this because that’s a roof, and on the
floor plan and this blueprint, it shows that you could go this many inches from the edge.” No, it’s going out into the labs, going on to the roof. It’s going into the sewer hole. It’s showing them how to do this. Being there when they’re getting fit tested for their fall protection and being willing to have them hoist you up to
show them that the PPE does work.
Amy Orders:
I’m going to give a perspective and Amy Haberman’s heard this story before. The first boss that I worked for in safety (and all of you know, the first boss) was six-foot-seven, but Bob M.’s personality is ten-feet high. I think it level-set my expectation that I wasn’t a female, I was a safety professional. Because, from the beginning, it was a set tone of respect. I think I have always presented myself as a six-foot-two person in personality, because I’m only four-foot-ten in height, and one of the realisms that women get judged by is height. And so, you have to develop a persona that makes you bigger than life. I won’t call it fearless. I won’t call it over-the-edge, but I think you have to be confident in your own skin. You have to walk the same walk. You have to have the same level of respect, no matter if it’s C-suite or someone who’s mopping floors. That you say “hello” to any person in between, and that you equalize the field. And by empathizing and understanding and not being a sidebar to the conversation, but an inviter to the conversation, you invoke that “Let’s get to know each other. Let’s have these conversations. Let’s be brutally honest with each other and walkway still amicable or friends or…” It’s not a matter of “I’m a woman and you’re a man.” It’s a matter of “We’re in this together.” And I think a lot of that actualizes conversations to step forward because you don’t have to define your role or your place. You just put your seat at the table. You put your place at the table and define it based on what you bring to the table and how you get it done. But I’ll go the next step further with Elisabeth, I think the best way in some of these conversations is to be human. So I tell people that when I first learned to drive a tractor, every “safety possible” concern was not there, it was a tractor on a farm and that’s what we did. But when I started driving the dump truck, I had to have the telephone books underneath me to be able to see out of the windshield and I had to reach the gearshift with an extender pole, because I’m not tall enough. And when you tell those self-deprecating humor stories to man or woman you just become another person, you just made that conversation happen, and I think that buys as much street credibility as your credentials and your position at the conversation.
Jerilyn Roberts:
I think the other thing that goes with this is that I don’t think any of us are afraid to get outside our email and go just meet the person and talk to them. I had a situation, just last year, where a faculty member was very upset with something that was going on (more related to facilities, but a little bit related to safety as well.) I marched over to his office and sat down with him. When I walked in the space, I definitely got an “I don’t want to talk to you,” but we sat down, and we talked about it, and we had it figured out. And I had been asking for some help to get it figured out with his supervisor, and it wasn’t going to happen. And so, I think being able to go in and not be afraid, and just go talk to the person about it (because they are just another person too), anytime you can do that, you’re going to be more successful.
Amy Haberman:
Yeah, I was going to piggyback on the self-deprecating or the relatability. I think that a huge piece of being a good leader is showing your own vulnerability and being willing to put yourself out there and take the risk. Like Jerilyn just said, you’ve got that faculty that doesn’t want to talk to you, but you’re going to step up and say “Hey, we’re in this together. What can we do? How are we going to get to the result that we both want?” I think another thing I was going to mention to your question that started off like, “How do we approach things a little bit differently or what have we learned in a male dominated field?” I think for me it really comes down to knowing yourself, and knowing your strengths, and then where you have to push yourself, where your weaknesses are. I mean, even just as we’ve been having this call, I’m starting to replay a couple things I’ve already said and I’m like, “Gosh, I just said that.” And that happens when hundred percent, every workday. You kind of regret and playback. And I know specific colleagues, that I’ve had, where I’m like, “You know what? I guarantee he’s not sitting at the dinner table replaying this whole conversation in his head, so I’m not going to do that either.” I brought the best I could to that situation at that moment, and I have to be happy with that and move on. I was alluding to the female perspective of what we bring because we’re female. I think I do agree with that, but I also think that it’s a lot to do with just who we are as people, and what we value, and what actions we take to show what we value. I just happened to have had the good fortune of meeting other women that seem to embody those same values that I have.
Gabrielle Repik:
I can attest to the height being an issue, or I should say a parameter that people judge you on, because I’m six-feet tall, and I actually use that quite often to intimidate people when I need to. It’s a tool in my toolbox that I whip out when needed. I think presentation in general is something that, at least for me (and I don’t know how the other women on the call feel about it), but I find that when I dress nicer and I do my hair and I do my makeup (if I have to deal with somebody who’s difficult, like a crusty old man) it’s a lot easier to take that on because I put on my warpaint that day. I suppose just feeling good in my skin and being ready to do it, even if I’m wearing ridiculous heels that day (I always keep extra shoes, just in case I have to go in the lab) but it’s just something that I like to do. It makes me feel more powerful and ready to go, especially if they end up being shorter than me. But knowing yourself, like Amy said, and (when you have to) whipping out that self-deprecating story and making it a little more personable and getting a connection going with somebody is very, very valuable as well.
Amy Haberman:
I want to share this really quickly. I had a male manager who actually told me that he didn’t think I should share as much as I do. He’s like, “You’re in a position of authority. You need to be careful what you share.” And honestly it just went in one ear and out the other. I’ve gotten to where I am in my career because I’ve been authentic and true to myself, and I’ve had good judgment about what I share, and sometimes you do have to share those vulnerable things and show that you’re human too in order to build those relationships. And so, I felt like, “You know what? That’s bad advice.” And I was proud of myself for recognizing that. Having that intuition and trusting myself. No, I’m pretty sure I know how to engage people and build those relationships, and part of it is sharing and I can’t be concerned all the time with “watching your back.” That’s kind of the impression that I got, is “watch your back.” I don’t want to live my life like that and so I definitely just dismissed it.
Gabrielle Repik:
I agree, I mean where I am now, people are very formal and kind of stiff in a lot of their communications. But, as I’ve developed relationships with like the labs, presented to the labs I work very closely with, I’m a little less formal. Not to the point where it’s like “buddy buddy,” but I definitely share more and communicate more on an informal communication style. I think that they appreciate that, because it’s less stiff, and they’re much more likely to come to me faster if there’s a problem, or if they made a mistake, and that’s very important (especially for a BSL-3 facility). If they did something stupid, you want somebody to be like, “Hey, I really messed up. Can you help me?” So, just being stiff and formal just builds a wall between you and them and you don’t want to do that. You want to be approachable.
Stephenie Langston:
I can say that I had much more success (and this is in my previous position) with people who got to the point where they felt comfortable enough picking up the phone and giving me a call to ask me questions about “how do I do this safely?” Once we got to that point it was less formal, but they felt comfortable enough with me and trusted me enough to be honest with them and communicate honestly with them so that they could do their work and there wouldn’t be a hindrance. So, I think oftentimes it’s just safety professionals in general you come across. You have to get to a point where you’re (like you’ve all said) partners and when people feel comfortable enough with you to reach out ahead of time or communicate where they failed. Usually that’s because you’ve also communicated where you’ve failed and that’s, I think, incredibly important. Going back to Gabby, what you said about warpaint, what I’ve found really interesting [is] (I think we all know) that if you say something, Facebook will stalk you. The help comes up, you say one thing and then you get all these ads on your social media account. But something that I’ve found really interesting is this push for women’s workwear in safety. So, for lack of a better word, “cuter” work boots that are steel-toed, that you can go from a job site to essentially a meeting and present and look professional. Sport jackets, pants, you name it. Whatever it may be, this push for not just making things smaller or pink or girly-colored, but actually providing women’s workwear that is safety-focused and beautiful to look at and wear and makes you feel strong and powerful. I think there is some of that, like you said, when you have that war paint it makes it a little bit easier to stand up for yourself (or not even stand up for yourself), but feel put together for a conversation. So, I don’t know if you’ve all seen those ads as well.
Gabrielle Repik:
Not yet, but I probably will now.
Stephenie Langston:
So, I guess this past year has been crazy. I think it’s been especially crazy for women working professionally, and then I think on top of that add that you’re a woman working in safety and it’s just been probably one of the most insane years. I know when I was working at UF it was one of the most insane times in my career as a safety professional. So, what has COVID taught you about your perspectives on safety and maybe molded you a little bit professionally as you move forward?
Amy Orders:
I’m definitely going to jump on this one. I have lived COVID. I’ll just share it—yesterday was the one year anniversary. The World Health Organization declared the pandemic one year ago. And for every frontline worker we gave out “Thank You” cards saying, “You gave one year, 52 weeks, 365 days, or 525,600 minutes.” I think I gave 525,601 minutes last year. COVID, I think, put in perspective work-life balance that is an absolute in health and safety for women. That not only are we “Doers” in our fabric (I think part of that is our nature) but I think part of that is we have this need and we propel ourselves forward. I have spent the past year in lockstep with a medical director for COVID operations at our university. The two of us are leaned on for every decision at the university level. I think we established our credibility, our fortitude, our honesty, and our humanity at the beginning, that we were taken seriously. And we took the opportunity, maximized it, and have worked more hours than I think were anticipated. Would we trade it? Probably not. It was the right thing to do for the greater whole. And I think, as a woman, I think about the greater whole more than I ever do myself. The gray hairs are immense now. I don’t think about that as much, but I think in having this very unprecedented (which is a word that I hope just goes away after 2021), and all these pivotal operations, we are the ones who complete it usually. We are. And I speak in the realm of women (including this group). We see ourselves as (very much) we can move into action. And we’re fearless in a lot of ways, but we’re also creative, we look for the synergies, we look for the one that said “No, you can’t do that!” And the answer is “Why?” We ask that question, and then we go on and we bring a cookie to the next meeting, or we do something that takes it to one more step, because that human factor makes us more successful. We bring it to the table. I wouldn’t trade COVID, but I certainly hope in this lifetime I never repeat it. I will tell all my female counterparts, or anyone who asks, “Would you do it again?” “Yes.” “Would you do it differently?” “Probably not.” But I would make sure that I would tell every woman, “Make sure your respect is acknowledged, that you are a contributor and you are acknowledged.” Not for “Thank You,” but for your, “I have a doctorate. I am a person at the table. I help make the decisions.” I think that needs to be something that in our society, we don’t necessarily look for rewards, we look for affirmations. We look for our credibility to be at the forefront, and after COVID, you should see more women at the forefront. I think this will be an ample changing opportunity. We need to maximize that, which means we need to tell other women to maximize that.
Amy Haberman:
I mean that concept was brought to the national level with Dr. Joe Biden. I think that that national conversation has happened and I can’t believe it took till 2021 to raise that point, but the fact that her credentials were disregarded because she’s not an M.D…I don’t have any other constructive comments on that, but yes, Amy, absolutely. Own your credentials and bring what you can to the table, and be proud of your accomplishments, absolutely.
Jerilyn Roberts:
I think the one thing you were asking about is work-life balance during this past year and I think that that has been a really tough thing. Because it’s every day. There were no weekends from about March on. They just started in November a little bit, there were some more weekends that that we got to acknowledge, but having to think about it every day and what was coming next was a little bit difficult and challenging. I think that would be one thing that I don’t know exactly how you change that and get through it, but just acknowledging that there is an end to it at some point. And then we know that it’s okay that you don’t feel great about yourself, when you’re getting to that point where you’ve been doing it so many days and you feel like you can’t go any further. But there will get to be a reprieve and you’ll continue on, and I think that’s still doing it. We got lots and lots more now that things are opening up a little bit, lots of other projects and things that are coming down the road that need to be done, so it’s time to just dig in and keep going.
Stephenie Langston:
And I think it’s interesting too, Gabby, I believe you were recognized in New York City as somebody who helped as an essential worker during COVID time, but I think recognizing women and their contributions to helping manage this pandemic, getting things together like a supply chain management process that worked effectively for your institution or even a vaccine rollout program, a lot of that decision [making] was left to director level positions with any EH&S and coordinating with the EH&S offices. So, I think it’s important going forward, really recognizing that it wasn’t just the medical professionals making a decision, it was also safety professionals. Like you said Amy, at your institution, where you were working together as a team, because you had your expertise and they had theirs, and really that team effort on how to get the appropriate information rolled out, the right tools in the right hands, and really even just the right communication that this is something that we can approach together. This is something we can tackle together and we can get through it together. At the end of the day, it’s really a team effort and recognizing that there was that safety component to it as well.
Amy Haberman:
I wanted to just add on (as a maybe a final thought) you guys mentioned work-life balance and all of the efforts you had to put in to manage the COVID response for your university, and that all of your actions were recognized by your kids too. We also had our kids home, trying to do remote schooling and manage in general what’s happening with your families related to COVID. I think that a lot of times we force ourselves to pick or choose work or family, but I think that when we demonstrate what we can contribute to the work environment you’re demonstrating for your children how to contribute to society, where you add value, how you can be competent and capable and all of those things. So, I think that’s our obligation as women, to show our kids what we can do and it might take a few moments away from them as you’re serving your institution, but you’re demonstrating for them how to contribute to the greater good, and I think that’s really important too.
Stephenie Langston:
I one hundred percent agree. Now, I have a little helper who likes to work with me and puts on his jacket every day and his work clothes and I do think that that’s something that he’s learning just from this pandemic that he would have never seen had we not been working half days in the office and half days in home and trying to plan things, and him being part of some of some of our safety meetings, because that’s just how it had to be during especially the early stages of the pandemic. So, I guess we’re coming up on our time, but I wanted to ask all of you: if you could give one piece of advice to a woman who was wanting to enter the safety field, whether it be in academia or out in the industry, what would that piece of advice be?
Jerilyn Roberts:
One thing I would say, is to find your group that you can bounce ideas off, and it doesn’t have to be all female-oriented, it just has to be a mix of people that you can get your ideas from and remember that you can use other people’s ideas. I mean, that’s one thing that I that I’ve learned through this field, that finding those connections and being able to find ways to have other people help you to get more things done is a smart thing. That’s the way to attack some of these things and get the knowledge of others that are in the field.
Elisabeth Haase:
I would second that, in that we were just talking about the pandemic and one of the struggles that we’ve all had during this pandemic is we’re being forced to make decisions without all the data. If we only had another week, if we only had another two months, if we only had…right? But you have to make a decision. Early on, I reached out to Jerilyn when I had questions and we talked about it, so find your (I call it a) tribe. Find your tribe that you can feel safe asking the questions and getting the feedback.
Amy Haberman:
One hundred percent, I totally echo that. I texted Gabby once too (just as a lay person consuming, because I’m not a biosafety expert), but I’m like, “Please explain this to me. Am I stupid? I don’t understand.” So being able to ask those questions and be especially vulnerable with your tribe [helps] but also, they help lift you up and encourage you. I think it’s an invaluable thing to have in your back pocket, a great group of people.
Gabrielle Repik:
I agree also because you can often cut your work load in half. They’ll have SOPs or policies or procedures for things that you now have to write; there’s no reason to reinvent the wheel. You can reach out to them and say, “Do you guys have a policy for this? Can you send it to me?” and then you can tailor it to your institution. It is important to have people that you can, like they said, bounce ideas off of, reach out to when you’re feeling frustrated or down or upset or whatever. It’s just people that get it, because people in your life they might not quite get it. I know one [example] is my mother, she was a school teacher and she’d be like, “But you work with really smart people, why are they so bad?” and I’m like, “You don’t get it.”
Jan Eggum:
I would say, don’t let the “no” discourage you. What I mean by that is, everybody is told “no” at some point in time in their life. As in, “No, you can’t do that because either you’re a girl, or no, you can’t do that because it’s whatever.” And we say it too, because “No, it’s not safe.” I mean we say that, but don’t let it discourage you to find that alternative path, or that creative ability that you can bring to the table to make it a “yes.” I know that sounds cliché, but that’s the way that I look at it. Don’t let the “no” discourage you. What is the other thing you can do to make it happen?
Amy Orders:
My daughter, Parker, she has to give a big speech today and she said, “Alright, if you were going to do this at work, what would you do?” And I told her two things. I said, “You have to establish your voice—think about what you’re going to say before you say it and take one deep breath before you speak. Because your first impression’s going to make a big difference, and if you say something and it’s out there, you can’t get it back.” And that’s the advice I would tell any woman going into a profession that you know automatically is going to be difficult. Alone in the world would be difficult, but women trying to find a voice, own your voice, but think about that voice first.
Stephenie Langston:
That’s really good advice. Thank you all so much for being with me today and for really sharing your experiences and your advice. And also, like I said before, I value all of you and I feel fortunate to know each and every one of you. I am grateful for CSHEMA for bringing us together and really getting to know you all over the past few years.
